The Musician Centric Podcast
Two professional violists, Liz O'Hara and Stephanie Knutsen, explore diverse perspectives in the music field through conversations together and with friends. Whether gaining fresh insights from industry innovators or laughing their way through a show like Mozart in the Jungle, Liz and Steph hope to inspire musicians, particularly freelancers, to feel a sense of agency in their lives.
**Note: This podcast was formerly titled the ViolaCentric podcast**
The Musician Centric Podcast
Behind the Music: Mental Health on Tour with Kyleen King
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Kyleen King, violist and string arranger for Brandi Carlile, opens up about musicians' mental health challenges and her journey toward becoming a therapist for touring musicians. She shares unfiltered insights about the psychological toll of touring life and the community support that's helping her transition into social work.
• The reality gap between performing onstage and the other "22.5 hours" of touring life
• How musicians mask suffering through performance both on and off stage
• The isolation of touring despite being surrounded by people constantly
• Kyleen's pursuit of a social work degree to help fellow musicians with mental health challenges
• The success of her community-funded education through GoFundMe
• The myth of individualism versus the reality of community interdependence
• Growing industry recognition of musicians' mental health needs
• Organizations like Backline offering mental health support to musicians
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Welcome to the Musician Centric Podcast. We are two freelance violists living and laughing our way through conversations that explore what it means to be a professional musician in today's world. I'm Steph.
Liz:And I'm Liz, and we're so glad you've joined us. Let's dive in.
Steph:Pray to the internet gods.
Liz:Oh my gosh. Yeah, we are praying to the internet gods. We had some glitchy stuff going on lately, I don't know.
Steph:Yeah, trying to work it all out. Do you really want to do this?
Liz:Yeah, yes, it keeps asking. Are you sure, are you sure you want to get back into this. But here we are, we're back. We have a very, very proud to have a guest episode to share with all of you.
Steph:Yeah, we have the amazing Kyleen King who's a violist. She is the violist and string arranger for Brandi Carlile. She's been on tour, she's been in the recording studio. She's done it all Very active in her local out in Portland.
Liz:Yeah, the local 99. Yeah, it was kind of cool for her to shout that out in a way, because we've had, you know, union episodes in the past and that was really nice to hear. Yeah, of course, I think Steph and I've probably talked about Brandi Carlile before on the podcast, because we're both massive fans. We've both seen her in concert multiple times. We just absolutely love her and so to get to talk to someone who gets to work with her out on the road is like such a dream. But the conversation was such an incredible surprise in a lot of ways because Kyleen just got real with us, real with us about experiences in touring and we really deep dive into mental health for musicians, which I think is so great. I don't know that we've really had that thread of conversation in a podcast episode before to this extent.
Steph:Yeah, and Kyleen shared with us the ups and downs of touring, obviously, like you said, but also it inspired her to start working on her social work degree. So she is actually getting a degree to help musicians with their mental health, especially those musicians on tour. So she really has a passion for helping people. She even said that she wants to be a mental health advocate against what's causing suffering in musicians' lives, which I thought was just a lovely ethos and inspiration for all of her work right now.
Liz:Absolutely. I found it very inspiring and it's been really interesting. I've been thinking a lot lately myself and I wonder how many musicians think this about their careers too like how there can be a service element beyond your performance. And I think you know when you feel like you find that niche, when you're like I don't know, like somehow makes the performance like almost more enjoyable because you're able to like express yourself in that creative way, and then you also feel like you're giving back, and it's just an interesting thing to think about. And I was very happy to be reminded of that in revisiting this conversation we had with her, which just inspiring in so many ways. And the other thing that I really think was great that we talked about was the concept of community, and we could let her unfold the story of how she kind of grassroots it with her community, but the idea of all of us lifting each other up, oh, it's so needed.
Steph:Especially right now. We need it so much we need each other.
Liz:Yeah.
Steph:And we need to go to bat for each other, which is a great segue into talking about community how you can help us Help Be part of our community. So, as you know, creating a podcast is not free or cheap. You can support us in lots of different ways. You can join our Patreon, you can contribute via our website, you could share this episode with a friend. Just help us get the word out. We just want to connect with you. We want you to be part of our community. We want to be part of your community.
Liz:Yeah, and we want to build it. We want to be part of your community together. That's really our ultimate goal is to be inspired, to learn and to engage with one another and with the people we meet. I think some of the most fulfilling experiences we've had through this podcast journey has been in the community that's been created around what we're offering and the wonderful people who we've been able to connect with that enjoy what we do. So the more you're willing to engage with us in various ways, the more we feel like we're doing something for you too. So, yeah, email list definitely sign up. We are going to be in touch by email and, as Steph said, there are various ways that you can help us by contributing financially if you have the means to do so. We want to keep this going and we really just we have to ask for help in order to do that. That's just the way it is and we're not ashamed.
Steph:Join our email list. Text us via the episode notes. There's a little link in there where you. We love feedback. We love to hear from you.
Liz:Yeah, absolutely, and stay tuned. And, oh man, steph, I feel like I'm going to take your line. Enjoy this episode with Kylene King.
Steph:Our guest today is Kyleen King, a multi-instrumental session musician, string arranger and live on the tracks of various artists, including Brandy, the Decembrists, my Morning Jacket, so many more. And recently Kyleen has turned her energy towards pursuing a degree in social work to serve the mental health needs of her colleagues in the musical community. Kyleen, it is a pleasure and honor to welcome you to the Musician Centric Podcast.
Kyleen:Oh, thank you, the pleasure and honor is mine.
Steph:Oh man, Obviously, Liz and I have been following your career. We're huge Brandi fans, but I think I speak for most of our audience, who are Brandi heads like we are. What was the path that led you to be on tour with Brandi? It seems like the dream job that we all when we get into music we imagine for ourselves.
Kyleen:you know, sure, sure, and I will definitely say dream job is quickly deflated once you start doing the work.
Steph:It always is.
Kyleen:So, just as a as this is who I am, I'm very real talk about everything.
Steph:We love it.
Kyleen:And so I will just deflate everything. Give us the uncut version, and I'm also extremely fortunate to have had the opportunities that I have. So it's both.
Liz:Yes.
Kyleen:But the way that I got that job is the way that I've gotten any other job, which is through who I know and how I put myself out there. And this is something that I tell people a lot. When they're asking, how do I get where you're at, I say can you come to your relationships with other people in a genuine and authentic way and nurture them from a place of friendship and interest, versus business and promotion? I've never. I don't live in LA, so I imagine there's a whole ecosystem that works in that model, but I've never approached other people as I only want to get something out of you. I want to know you, I'm curious about you, I'd like to just expand my communal feeling of friendship and relationship and meaning, and so that's how I approach any person that I work with, and I have nurtured several genuine friendships over my life, and the job with Brandy came from exactly that.
Kyleen:I like to share that I had met with my friend, laura Gibson, who's a singer-songwriter in Portland, and told her I was looking for work because I had lost my last touring job and I was like, yeah, you know, just kind of keep an eye out for anything. And it just so happened that the former violinist of Brandy's, lauren, got a job for the Lumineers which had just opened up. Got a job for the Lumineers which had just opened up and the communication went from Laura Gibson to Lauren that I was looking for work and so Lauren just recommended me for the job and it was all the timing kind of thing. It just worked out perfectly. They had seen each other, they had played music together.
Kyleen:I mean, portland's a small city all things considered, half the people that live here are musicians, but we, it gets around. So I was really lucky to be recommended for that and I just showed up in 2018 for the first gig for her, and my audition was the soundcheck of okay, here's your job, like play the soundcheck and then three shows in a row, and that's what I did.
Liz:And, um, we, we were talking about, you know, the things we don't know in the career that you've had, and one being the fact that touring is this notoriously grueling way to make a living. Um, and so you know, one of the questions we had was what did you see on the road? What were your experiences that highlighted these sort of unmet needs that you've been seeing, that you want to serve as you go forward with the social work?
Kyleen:Just curious if either of you have ever toured before.
Steph:I have never.
Liz:Like baby tours.
Steph:Yeah, nothing like that.
Kyleen:Like go out for like get in the car, go to a place and then come home or maybe stay out for a couple of days.
Steph:Right, like a couple of days kind of.
Liz:I did a one week van tour, that kind of thing. Yeah, handful of hotels, little bits.
Kyleen:Totally. That's a little window into it. I'm always curious of who I'm talking to and if you already kind of know the answer to this question, one of the things just stepping back out of just me. Everybody comes to tours with a different life set of problems and concerns and circumstances. There are some people that are far more adaptable and resilient than others and some people absolutely collapse and everything in between. So it's not a uniform experience in that way between. So it's not a uniform experience in that way.
Kyleen:And for me, my childhood issues and the way that I developed made me be chameleon-like and adaptable, so that my discomfort and my needs were always suppressed in the interest of serving others, which made me really seem to do really well for the first several years of my life, touring that you wouldn't know on the surface that I was suffering underneath, because I would have never, you would have never seen it and people would remark what's like? You seem so comfortable and so sociable and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and it's like, yeah, I, that's a, that's a strategy, it's a strategy for protecting myself, that's a coping mechanism. And also, from childhood issues, I became hyper vigilant and hyper observant and aware of what everybody's feeling like the temperature of the room and the vibe and I cannot turn that off. So I'm constantly aware of where everyone is at at all times and just that alone would knock a person down. It's exhausting to be in a touring environment where you're taking on everybody's stuff and sitting with it quietly because there's not a place to share the vibe on a tour, especially when you're trying to live with people for weeks and months at a time, years at a time on a bus and you never escape them is everything needs to be kind, of light and fun and funny and we don't talk about hard things. We can talk about hard things in some little brief moments, but it's hard to know who you can trust and how you can connect with people. And these are my experiences.
Kyleen:I think other camps, other bands, other artists might have different experiences and feel like this is my family and I connect with them so deeply and honestly. That's never been my experience. I've never really found my people in my touring experiences as a professional, as a professional, and so I felt very alone and very isolated and suffering in silence and witnessing a lot of other suffering that's masked under various layers of presentation Like no, I'm going to drink a whole bunch or do a whole bunch of drugs or I'm going to be super funny. So you have no idea how much I'm hurting, just like any other job in the world. We all have an idea about what other people's professions are like, and we don't know unless we go do it Right. And so especially this one on tour, playing on stages in front of thousands of people, and we're also presenting on stage.
Liz:Yeah, we are having the best night of our lives.
Steph:Yes.
Kyleen:And truthfully, that's not disingenuous. Like every time I'm on stage, there are having the best night of our lives. Yes, and truthfully, that's not disingenuous. Like every time I'm on stage, there is no disingenuous bone in my body. I'm feeling whatever I'm showing. There's like, uh, we might be coordinating our dance moves for a minute, but like it's real.
Kyleen:I'm real in that moment and the 22 and a half other hours of the day are the part that is the hard part of touring yeah so I feel like there's a lot of visible examples of suffering. The most recent is uh liam payne yeah like you've been this famous person.
Kyleen:He's in one direction. One direction had their big moment. One direction doesn't have that big moment anymore. Yet he's still a person, young and existing in the world, who had an obscene amount of attention for a while and then it's gone. And how do you deal with that? Drugs, you know any other number of addictions, even the stage, can become a drug where you're trying to fill this emptiness from the stage and it doesn't last.
Kyleen:I I cannot not see that. You know what I mean. And it hurts. It hurts more and more and more the longer I'm out on the road and I'm like I'm not able to do this anymore, and a lot of that came from my personal journey with therapy and healing and like that's why it's getting harder to be in that environment, because I feel like I'm stepping more into. I want to take care of this, I want to heal this, I want to address this, I want to talk about it, I want to advocate against these things that are causing suffering and I can't participate in the game. I can't participate in the system.
Steph:Yeah, you can't unknow things that you know.
Kyleen:Exactly yeah, that was a big long stretch of.
Steph:Oh no, thank you for sharing that because I don't think that people talk about it. Thank you for sharing that because I don't think that people talk about it. That side of touring at all. You know we all go to the concerts. You think that that image that you're seeing on stage is the whole experience? But of course it's not. Of course we know this too. We go on stage and we play a concert, and it's this beautiful expression.
Liz:But we joke about. You know, the bus rides up to New York or wherever we're going to play. We're like this is so glamorous, isn't this a glamorous life? That we live on a gray house, on a sprinter bus at 10 o'clock at night. My leg is cramping, it's a car sick oh yeah, yes, I think it's.
Liz:it is a really interesting thing to, once you start to do the work, especially if you're someone who has struggled in the past with you know you're highly sensitive, you're people pleasing, you are prone to take on other people's crap without even knowing that you're doing it right.
Liz:I've had to do a lot of work in that area and what's ended up happening? Well, first of all, I think it's really interesting for anybody else who's had these experiences where, once you start to recognize it, there's a period of time where you're like I can't be in any of it. I have to get myself away from it as much as possible because I now know what it's doing to me, because I don't know how to take care of this thing yet for myself. But then there's this really interesting point in time when you continue to do the work, where you start to recognize that, like boundaries are this wonderful thing that exists in the world and they're hard, they're really hard Sometimes, like I just you know total transparency. I have a wonderful therapist. I've talked about my therapist before. She's been my therapist for like nearly five years now. She's helped me so much.
Liz:And just yesterday we were having a conversation about a very what, what is seemingly a very minor thing in my life, and I was telling her oh, I had this all structured out and then this came up and now I don't know what I'm going to do. And it wasn't even work related, it's personal related and she's like you know, I never do this, but do you want my advice? I was like, oh, you got a therapist to give you advice. I was like, yes, and she's like you need to stick with the thing that you had structured for yourself for this reason, this reason, this reason, this reason, and I'm like but, but, but. And she's like talk it out. And I talked it out and I was like you're exactly right. You're exactly right, you know, sometimes our boundary means like letting go of a thing that we used to do all the time that is no longer good for us, or finding our limits Like maybe it's not as much time and that's certainly relative, even for I think anyone can relate to that in a musical career, whether it's on the road, which is this aggressive for sure, there's no question, and I mean we all hear like the party stories.
Liz:But the dark side of that is, of course, 100 accurate and sad and difficult, you know, because you don't identify as performers. Like you said, everything's authentic on stage because it's where we feel the most alive, it's where we feel the most fulfilled and the rest of our lives. It's easy to forget that you have so much more to being a human and living the experience of a human life than just being on the stage and getting the performing opportunity. I don't know. I think that's the challenge is figuring out how to find value and all of those things in your life too. And I think it speaks to some other things that you've shared about your own experience too, which we'll get into. But I just think all of that is just so well said and I think a lot of people struggle with that. Uh, the taking on of other people's stuff.
Kyleen:I, you're not alone. You're not alone, definitely not alone. We we largely do that. We're all trying to avoid conflict and we are all trying to avoid pain. So, a hundred percent, what you're just spoke to, I feel like, is we don't learn how to sit with our discomfort. We don't learn who we are and why we are the way we are.
Kyleen:If we were all in therapy like we should all be in therapy and treated our mental health with the same regard that we do our physical health, we would understand ourselves a lot better and be able to tolerate the discomfort of those touring environments a lot more easily the performing environments, the rehearsal environment, the ego struggle of being creative and a lot more easily. The performing environments, the rehearsal environment, the ego struggle of being creative and working with other people. Every struggle that you face in the business can be tolerated and managed and navigated if you have some groundedness and understanding of yourself and who you are. That's a big missing piece. This is why I'm going to keep saying this out loud in every place that I can. I want Taylor Swift to start paying for a foundation that provides mental health and resource support to touring musicians in the touring environment, and not just musicians, crew management, everybody that's out on the road needs to be cared for on the road in that space, because you are alone out there, resourceless, with no support. It's mostly predators.
Kyleen:And us kind of feeling like our own advocates, trying to stay ahead of the people that are waiting in line behind us for our jobs. And so Taylor Swift has billion dollars and I think that Taylor Swift would be on board to putting her name on a foundation that I somehow get smarter people than me to be in charge of and we start to create mental health, structural support and not only touring musicians. But that is one of as I've spent many years on the road now that's one of the biggest glaring missing pieces to me is that's.
Steph:we need it there on the road yes, manifest.
Liz:I am, we'll keep it in the pod, taylor. You heard it here, taylor she's a big fan. She, she listened to all the episodes so far. I'm sure she has.
Kyleen:Yes we're going to be best friends.
Liz:But that's your community. You recognize the struggles within your community, we have the same experience in our own, and so what needs are being met? Like when you ask how to be a person of value in your world, you're asking what the needs are that need to be met. And then that's the beauty, right, you started there. Maybe it gained some success, and then maybe there are other organizations that crop up that start providing mental health resources to orchestral musicians and the issues they face, and they, you know it's a snowball effect.
Kyleen:It's already becoming more common. Like what you were saying earlier is historically, for us these are still new concepts and still taboo because they are still so new. Like Backline is an organization that's providing mental health support that's funded by other people, so it's like free you go, get case management services from them. Management services from them. Even Live Nation created Touring Career Workshop, which is providing mental health and counseling services only to Live Nation performers, and it was only at the stadium and arena level. But I did see it and I met with somebody because I was like, hey, and it just started. This was like last 2023. So it's new and I'm on a mental health committee for the Local 99 Musicians Union in Portland. We are constantly talking about symphony musicians because everybody on that committee is in the symphony but me.
Liz:We're talking about neurodivergence constantly and how.
Kyleen:ADHD and autism are not addressed and how it's severely prevalent in the symphony scene. I'm learning even more about the difficulties of what it's like to be in the symphony. I had my own ideas. I was like, oh well, you have a salary and you have benefits and you have blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're like listen, here's the reality of what that job is like. And I had no idea.
Liz:So you're right.
Kyleen:It's going to snowball, it's going to become more common, and I'm just one in a sea of voices that I think are going to come around to this more and more and more People are talking about it, more and more.
Steph:Noah Kahan talks about it on the road.
Kyleen:He's raising money for mental health organizations. I think Lady Gaga, selena Gomez, like all of these massive figures, are talking about it a lot. Simone Biles talking about mental health in the Olympics. Totally, you know it's yeah it's amazing. We're on the right track and I think things are going to get better. It's just been so hard for us now and before the now, and where the struggles are still at today in the existing environment for people working right now.
Steph:But you're doing more than just talking about it. You're actually pursuing a degree in social work.
Kyleen:Yes, I have many big ideas and I don't have enough time in my life to do all the things I want to do, but I'm working on a master's degree in social work right now, which I'll be done with next August, in 2025.
Kyleen:And my idea is to be a private practice therapist for musicians and creatives as one aspect of my work. I also plan to continue doing music that I'm not going to burn out on one or the other. I'm not going to rely on music for income. I'm not going to burn out on taking on 30 clients a week. I'm going to figure out a balance and I'm not going to rely on music for income. I'm not going to burn out on taking on 30 clients a week. I'm going to figure out a balance and I'm going to advocate locally, nationally and maybe internationally with every organization I can find that wants to provide resource, support and mental health support to musicians and creatives. It's really clear, you know, like we were saying earlier, this path is just so clear now where I'm like oh, this is how old me and new me all figure together and why this feels so meaningful and why I'm so passionate about it.
Kyleen:Because, there's purpose in this. That makes a whole lot of sense for who I am and what my story is. So yeah, yeah.
Steph:It's so clear that you're so passionate about it. It's wonderful to see such a clear vision and with such heart behind it and it's clear that you have a community out there in Portland that needs and wants and appreciates you for bringing this up. And it's nowhere more clear than in your GoFundMe for your social work degree.
Liz:So, listeners.
Steph:if you don't know, go check it out. Kylene has a GoFundMe that funded her master's degree in social work and Liz and I were on there the other day. Liz was just telling me what she saw, what you see on there.
Liz:Well, okay, so here's what I was marveling at, and there's like a few reasons we're bringing this up, but I think, first of all, it's definitely a testament to your community. What I saw was that you posted. You basically were very honest about the reasons you were going into this work and you were very frank about the financial restrictions of trying to do this work, and you mentioned loans and you mentioned the high interest cost of that, which we're all very aware of, you know to try to pursue any kind of higher ed degree costs so much money.
Liz:And you were very frank. You basically said, like this is going to cost $20,000 for me to go to school and it's going to roughly cost me $20,000 to live while I'm going to school, and I like that. What you did was you first said you were looking for someone who's like got resources that will just give you money, and I love that because it's like, yes, I really wish more people that had unlimited resources would just hand it over. You know, as we look at the world of like tycoon billionaires and the new era of robber barons and all, oh, yes, yeah which is a whole other can of worms.
Liz:It sure is. But then you look down and you see you have raised this money, but in looking at your donors, it's all just people who are throwing a hundred bucks, 50 bucks, 20 bucks, 150 bucks. And we were just Steph and I, both were just thinking about this, this concept of like having a community of support and what it looks like actually to. And I forget if I, if Stephanie, you'll have to tell me if I had a more succinct way of putting this but, I, just have this idea in my head.
Liz:That's like, wow, you know, when I know someone who has a project and they're crowdfunding for that project and I believe in it, I'm going to throw 20 or 50 bucks their way. And then if I have a project that someone else really loves or believes in, they're going to throw bucks my way. And this idea of like supporting one another as we explore ways to serve our communities, it's meaningful and it creates this sense of closeness and connection. To tie it back to what all of us feel as musicians is the most important thing we do is connect in various ways. Here you are doing that, but I think we were curious.
Liz:How did you even think to be like you know what I want to do this work? I'm just going to throw a go fund me up there and hope for the best. Where does this community come from? Are these people you know personally? Like, I mean, really it's a weird question, but I ask it because I think the more that artists or creatives are willing to say out there I want to do this thing, I have this vision for doing this thing, I need your help, the more we have to offer.
Kyleen:Right, it was so nice to hear you talk about it just now, Like you really spoke so well to the whole thing and I was like, oh, it almost made me want to cry just hearing you talk about it um, because the idea was I wasn't going to get enough money from loans to even cover what I needed.
Kyleen:It was still going to be about ten thousand dollars short and I was like so I'm definitely signing up for massive interest for a long time and I'm going to have to work a certain number of hours and work with this many clients for this long to pay off this debt. And I was fully expecting to take on loans and go into debt as I was doing a master's and I was looking at the loans and I'll be honest, I filed bankruptcy in 2015 for some credit card debt that I had from an ex and I still can't even go in. I can't go into a bank and get a loan, like I, that expires next year.
Steph:It's a 10 year mark on your credit, OK 10 years and I, it happens, next year.
Kyleen:But I couldn't even go just like get a credit card to pay for my life, for the rest of it, and I was like okay, so what do I do?
Kyleen:and the first thing that comes to mind is exactly what you said. Maybe there's a brandy fan who is just sitting on a mountain of money and forty thousand dollars would be nothing to them. How do I ask for this? And I was talking to my housemate about it and my housemate was like okay. I was like here's my idea. I want to try to find a Brandy fan. I'm going to make a social media post and see if I can get a Brandy fan's attention. And she was like just create a GoFundMe link so that if the Brandy fan who has resources sees it, they can easily just put the money in so they have a way to donate. You don't have to manage or coordinate or whatever with them, just like it's an easy way for them to just click on something and send it to you.
Kyleen:So I made that post and I put the GoFundMe link in the comments to try to hide it, because I did not want my friends to donate to it, because I felt an enormous guilt for putting up a GoFundMe asking to pay for my school, when I can get loans, when there are people putting up GoFundMes for paying for their medical debt and dealing with tragedy and loss and I even went on the GoFundMe site and looked at the education section to see how many people were doing that there's like nobody raising money to pay for their higher education. This is such a unique thing.
Liz:It's pretty crazy to me actually. I agree.
Steph:Wouldn't that be one of the most common things that people go into debt for?
Kyleen:Maybe these days I saw differently, just on the main website.
Steph:And so.
Kyleen:I put that up and I was walking around my house like this. I felt horrible. I was so nervous, I was so uncomfortable, I wanted to get it off, I wanted to take it down. I was like what are you doing? Like this is this is absurd.
Kyleen:And I was terrified of the criticism and the judgment I was going to receive and what people were going to think about me for putting this up. And, of course, my attempt to hide the GoFundMe link failed and all my friends saw it and they started sharing it and they started donating and within two days it was to like $11,000. And I was like, okay, this is out of my hands. This was not my intention, but I cannot control the way that this goes and I need to get out of my own way because I was really struggling with how to process that that so many people were jumping on that to donate.
Kyleen:And the kind of feedback you receive from the GoFundMes. I don't know if you've ever talked to somebody who's done it or if you've ever done one, but the kind of feedback you received is it's just so overwhelming. It's like being at your own funeral and hearing the best things about you, like I just received so much love and support from my community, and that community is not only Portland musicians, but it was Brandy fans. A lot of them are follow me on social media. A lot of them were donating. A lot of them were reaching out telling me how much it means to see me on stage every time with Brandy and that they couldn't be more happy to donate.
Kyleen:Friends saying like I am so happy to give you the $25 I can afford to give you. It's just, it's so meaningful. I didn't have words and I kind of still don't. When I think about it, I'm like what can I possibly say about what happened there? And as I paid my first bill for this first semester, I've been trying to communicate back to them how meaningful it is. I'm like I have no debt because of you, because of you all, and I also have to recognize that I put myself out there.
Steph:And if I hadn't put myself out there.
Kyleen:I wouldn't be in this position. Yes, and I can't recommend it enough. Yes, what you're terrified of is the thing that you probably should go do, and I did receive some direct criticism and judgment from people I love, from random people online. I saw it and I was like, ok, let's put on our big girl pants and let's, let's see what this feels like and let's accept it. I, it was so intense for a minute I almost pulled it down because I was like questioning my choice to do it and I didn't and I left it up. Um so uh. If anything is motivational from this, is that you can rethink systems, you can reach out to your community, we can create systems of support around us outside of this burdening, oppressive system of capitalism that says you have to do all of these things this way and the social norms that say you're supposed to do this and be this and this is the right way, and I just I have never agreed with that and social work couldn't align more with who I am because I disagree with all of those norms.
Kyleen:I just I think they're absurd and I see how they allow people to have power over others. When you decide something is the right way or somebody is better than another person, it's just not true, so yeah. I have a lot of feelings about that and I'm so glad you asked about it. Yeah, great.
Steph:I'm so touched too, because it was so vulnerable. It was so vulnerable to put yourself out there in that way and it was such a middle finger to the system basically.
Steph:It really was, but I really think of it as like a return to like what our basic human needs and instincts are. We want to be part of a community. We want to support each other. We don't want to have to go it alone Like we don't want to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. No one wants to see that either. We've glorified that for so long and it's, I think, a return to what's really true about being a human.
Kyleen:Yeah, that's true, exactly.
Steph:Is reaching out for those connections and that community and that village.
Kyleen:Exactly. It flies in the face of capitalism, and what capitalism says is true Nobody has ever pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, nobody has ever done anything without other people, ever, ever A hundred percent you might be. No, you might be a remarkable, amazing human who's, like, achieved unbelievable things, and you've done it because other people have helped you somewhere along the way. We are all relying on other people to get anything done, and it's such a myth that you have ever done anything entirely on your own. You can't do anything on your own.
Kyleen:You can't do anything on your own, and it's getting that myth and that lie out of the way can do exactly what you just said, steph, which is return us to what is true about us as humans, as we are a social species who rely on each other and want to connect and want to be in partnership with each other and care about each other. We actually do care as much as people are trying to convince us we don't. We actually do and we still do alone in our houses, on our phones when we're not seeing people. We care so much and we want to say that we don't because it hurts to acknowledge the truth that we all do.
Steph:Yeah, because that's the harder path.
Kyleen:Yeah, it's the harder path. It's caring, yeah exactly.
Liz:Well, what do you think, Steph? Should we lighten things up? Kylie, how do you feel about playing a game?
Kyleen:Okay, do you like games? Let's do games.
Liz:Okay, it's like still going to be a deep thought, steph. What do we call this game?
Steph:Okay, so we're calling this game sight reading and so we have this list of questions and it's nothing as traumatic as the real deal, okay they're just very light very thought-provoking questions, and we're going to ask them at random, maybe two or three of them, and you can just tell us what you think. Just like, and I think I think it's worth mentioning.
Liz:You are our first guest we're ever going to play this game with. Oh gosh, you're the very first one and we're very excited, but we also were talking about it. We're like, I think kyleen's the perfect guest to do the perfect yes, I'm honored, so I have I have this, um, oh, my god, I can I.
Liz:I have to show kyleen what this looks like. So this is this will make it into the episode, but I have to show you the. Can you see this? Okay? So this is the wheel and I'm gonna spin it and then we going to ask the question that corresponds to the number. Okay, go.
Steph:Okay, you feeling lucky there it goes oh, it's making a noise.
Liz:I don't know if that's going to come out in the recording, though.
Steph:Oh boy, okay, okay, 16. Oh, there's, applause.
Liz:Okay, here's question 16. What does success look like for you at this moment?
Kyleen:Success at this moment looks like knowing who I am and what I want regardless of what anybody else has to say. Authenticity. Yep, success is what I define as success for me, not what anybody else defines as success. Yeah.
Steph:It changes, right, yeah, yeah.
Liz:Moving target.
Steph:It is.
Liz:Totally moving target. Yeah, okay, steph, do you have the list of questions?
Steph:I do. I already spun oh, you already spun. Okay, great, which one? Yes?
Liz:Number 27.
Steph:Okay, best gig meal ever.
Kyleen:Okay, this happened recently. I was up in Alaska with the Lobar Corral this summer playing Salmon Fest in the Nilchik.
Steph:As you do.
Kyleen:As you do, and they had all of these salmon guy like salmon fisher people, and they brought their salmon, the way they prepared it, uh, for us to sample as a contest. And so we got to taste the most delicious salmon prepared in all these different ways of all time and it was just stunningly good. Like we, we, we were high, we were buzzing oh my gosh we're melting. It was so delicious uh and fresh and fresh. Oh, that, that's one of my favorite food memories.
Liz:That's so good, that was pretty good okay, uh, question number 12 is what is something you do differently than anyone else you know, and why that's a big one.
Kyleen:Yeah, whoa, wow, I'm scared to answer.
Steph:There are lots of things that I do differently.
Liz:I want to hear it. Steph, how would you answer this?
Kyleen:I don't know how to answer this.
Steph:Do you put all of your emails in different folders? No, like organize them once you get them?
Liz:I think you know the answer to that question.
Steph:I do Just because it's so overwhelming to see a whole inbox full of unanswered emails. I feel better when they're in folders.
Liz:Even if you haven't opened them.
Steph:Yeah, okay, that might be. I automatically go through and delete.
Liz:Okay, yeah, okay, that might be.
Steph:I automatically go through and delete. Okay, yeah, so Okay.
Liz:Okay, I'm the anal one on this podcast no, but I love it, I love it In case you didn't know. I just I know that people sort into folders Like that's a thing, but like the unread part.
Kyleen:I don't know if I know anybody else who does that part, so that is unique to you. Yeah, I think that's unique. Yeah, okay, I thought the only thing I could think of here which I'm sure other people do, is I have struggled to focus on schoolwork and reading. It's really, really hard for me. So I have, um, like a tv show playing on silent, plus music playing plus like lighting and a candle and like my little stress ball, and if I have all of these things going, they distract all the parts of my brain that don't want to be doing that work and I can have a better chance at focusing Every time I tell people that they're like what. So I think I might be fairly unique in this, but I know I'm not alone, so I would love to hear from other people.
Liz:I don't think you're alone. I think that's. I think the multiple, multiple factors, though, are very unique. You know, like you have a specific set of things. Like I generally need to have some kind of background noise to work, for sure, yes, but like it's usually the TV with the sound on, or or because music I actually can't. I cannot work to music. I find that very distracting. Any kind of music playing.
Kyleen:I don't listen to music very much which is very that's interesting. I don't like listening to music that much. It's very rare that I want to listen. It's work, interesting.
Steph:And I'm analyzing.
Kyleen:But if I find the right like I basically exclusively listen to Trent Reznor and atticus ross film scores um as the background for my work, I love it. I can revel in film score uh and soundtrack stuff um lyric based stuff is I'm not as interested in listening to. It's a little more distracting than I ever listened to lyrics? Yeah, so I can also tune out lyrics as background yeah but it's distracting enough to quiet that part of my brain.
Steph:It's so weird yeah, oh, my god, that's this is. This is amazing. Thank you for indulging us thanks to being our guinea pig.
Liz:Yes, okay you're the best. This has been such a delight um to have you on kyleen. Thank you so much thank you so much.
Kyleen:It's been so great to chat with you two lovely, lovely humans, and thanks for asking these great questions and I don't know, just being so supportive and smiley and caring and wonderful. Yeah, this is great. Good job doing for your podcast, great job. It's hard and you are making it work.
Steph:Thank you for that pep talk yeah.
Liz:Thank you so much for listening today. If you loved this episode, consider writing us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, amazon Music, spotify or wherever you listen.
Steph:You can buy all your musician-centric merch, including shirts, water bottles, koozies and a variety of other fun items.
Liz:Our theme music was written and produced by JP Wogeman and is performed by Steph and myself. Thanks again for listening. Let's talk soon. Thank you.
